Sounds like the same problems may result. Minus the
vandals. Would it be like a PLB and a cuckoo clue
combined? How many clues are you going to put in it?
Will you have to make a new clue book everytime you
plant another box of this kind? Sounds kinda time
consuming. Who knows, I'm probably wrong. I usually
am. That's what happens when your parents drop you
too often.

Seth
--- eli_slider wrote:
>
> I recently planted a box in an area a friend of mine
> showed me and
> which we decided would be great for letterboxes, but
> that we want to
> keep kind of quiet. I started considering making it
> WOM or creating
> Cuckoo clues for it. The problems I have had or see
> with those
> methods are these:
>
> 1. WOM clues get passed around and the list of
> people who know about
> it can grow exponentially. Not so great if you want
> to place a box
> in an area where you don't want to create high
> traffic for whatever
> reason, usually ecological.
>
> 2. Cuckoo clues by their nature give you no
> assurance that the person
> who finds them will be a person you want to find
> your box. For
> example, a vandal might find a box where the cuckoo
> clues reside, and
> then have the clues to your box. Not good.
>
> So, here is what I thought of. I have no name for
> it yet, if it is
> even a new idea. I am going to create a nice,
> durable cluebook, and
> perhaps a logbook as well. The clues will be in
> this cluebook, but
> the instructions will expressly request that the
> clues never be copied
> down to any other printed form. Nor, should the
> existence of the box,
> much less the clues themselves ever be spread by
> word of mouth. After
> the person who is given the cluebook finds the box,
> they pass the
> cluebook physically to another person who they feel
> is trustworthy.
> And so on. This way eventually most people in a
> lboxing community
> will get to find the box, but the time that takes
> will be spread out
> much further than usual thus reducing the impact of
> the box on it's
> environment.
>
> Hopefully I explained that clearly enough. I posted
> this here to see
> what everyone thinks about the concept, and to see
> if perhaps it
> already has a name.
>
> Any suggestions or comments?
>
> Eli
>
>
>
>



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/

Sounds like a cool idea to me :)

MsDragonfli
--- eli_slider wrote:
>
> I recently planted a box in an area a friend of mine
> showed me and
> which we decided would be great for letterboxes, but
> that we want to
> keep kind of quiet. I started considering making it
> WOM or creating
> Cuckoo clues for it. The problems I have had or see
> with those
> methods are these:
>
> 1. WOM clues get passed around and the list of
> people who know about
> it can grow exponentially. Not so great if you want
> to place a box
> in an area where you don't want to create high
> traffic for whatever
> reason, usually ecological.
>
> 2. Cuckoo clues by their nature give you no
> assurance that the person
> who finds them will be a person you want to find
> your box. For
> example, a vandal might find a box where the cuckoo
> clues reside, and
> then have the clues to your box. Not good.
>
> So, here is what I thought of. I have no name for
> it yet, if it is
> even a new idea. I am going to create a nice,
> durable cluebook, and
> perhaps a logbook as well. The clues will be in
> this cluebook, but
> the instructions will expressly request that the
> clues never be copied
> down to any other printed form. Nor, should the
> existence of the box,
> much less the clues themselves ever be spread by
> word of mouth. After
> the person who is given the cluebook finds the box,
> they pass the
> cluebook physically to another person who they feel
> is trustworthy.
> And so on. This way eventually most people in a
> lboxing community
> will get to find the box, but the time that takes
> will be spread out
> much further than usual thus reducing the impact of
> the box on it's
> environment.
>
> Hopefully I explained that clearly enough. I posted
> this here to see
> what everyone thinks about the concept, and to see
> if perhaps it
> already has a name.
>
> Any suggestions or comments?
>
> Eli
>
>
>
>



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/

Great idea! I would feel really special if someone handed me a clue
book like that!

In a message dated 3/14/2005 5:18:42 PM Central Standard Time,
iqladen@bellsouth.net writes:
I am going to create a nice, durable cluebook, and
perhaps a logbook as well. The clues will be in this cluebook, but
the instructions will expressly request that the clues never be copied
down to any other printed form. Nor, should the existence of the box,
much less the clues themselves ever be spread by word of mouth. After
the person who is given the cluebook finds the box, they pass the
cluebook physically to another person who they feel is trustworthy.
And so on. This way eventually most people in a lboxing community
will get to find the box, but the time that takes will be spread out
much further than usual thus reducing the impact of the box on it's
environment.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

For 2005, a group of us -- Keith & I with the other members of The Oops Gang,
plus TurboTurtle who just moved into the area in January -- got together and
decided to start our own yahoogroup list and we're going to post the clues in
the files section of the group list as we place the boxes this year. This
list will have no "discussion" on it. It's just a place for us to house our
clues when I get them written.

I plan to write it into each set of clues requesting that the clues not be
passed by word-of-mouth to anyone who isn't on the list. That way, by keeping
the number of list members to a lowish number, we can help protect the
environments where we'll be placing our 2005 boxes. All we can do is trust that
boxers will honour that request and not pass the clues around.

With your proposed system of having to physically pass the cluebook from one
party to another, that would mean it would only be available to folks who do
get together with each other, or who at least feel they know each other enough
to maybe want to have each other's names and addresses for mailing the
cluebook -- something like what seems to be done with postal letterboxes. That might
be reeeeeeeeeeally narrowing down the number of boxers depending on how much
the boxers in your area either get together or know each other. But that
might be what you're after. You don't say how restrictive you want to get. You
might find that "most people in a lbing community" aren't really all that in
touch with other as it sometimes seems. But that obviously likely varies from
one neck of the woods to another.

You're also relying on people to "judge" whether another person is
"trustworthy" or not, and a lot of folks *think* they know each other and they really
have no idea just how little they really know.

Another thing to worry about with your system is that it's sort of like
letting loose a hitchhiker. You could end up with someone who keeps the cluebook
in their backpack for the next year and you'd never know it.

When I set up our list, we weren't out to make things *terribly* restrictive.
But we're hoping to place boxes in areas that seem, to us at least, to have
either a lot of historical significance or a lot of environmental significance
or both, and therefor a kind of spiritual significance to us, and we want to
avoid as much potential for damage as possible. So we sat around one night
trying to figure how to make the clues "quieter" and also how to be less
involved ourselves in giving out the clues. Last year, with our word-of-mouth boxes,
we handled them a variety of ways. But they all really involved folks having
to get in touch with me to email them the clues. Or else meet up with us on
the trail, and at the hours we usually box, that's unlikely to happen. This
way, they can just go to the files section of the group and grab the clues for
themselves.

And if things change with a particular box, we can also update the clues in
the files section. With your cluebook, say, for example, things don't work out
well for the box in one particular location and you want to move the box 100
feet in another direction. How do you get word to whoever would have the
cluebook at the time? Or will you be relying on folks to check in with you as
they pass on the cluebook so that you'll have a way to contact the latest person
to have the book so they can make a change in the clues for you?

I don't know how well relying on something like that would work. Look at
hitchhikers. We've found several that had an email addy attached to them asking
for folks to contact the owner when they found it. Oftentimes I'll get in
touch with an owner only to have them write me back, thanking me for getting in
touch, and telling me that nobody has gotten in touch since 2003 or some such
year, and there might be 15 or 20 entries from 2004. And the email addy and
request to be contacted are right in the logbook and it's a perfectly good addy.
But finders just don't get around to doing the contacting.

Pippi


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, any letterbox you plant is going to have to be found by people.
I have already concluded that placing a box and trying to control
exactly who has the clues is too much trouble and will only lead to
irritation. That's my view. So, in this scenario, only ONE
letterboxer at a time will be able to find the box. So, it makes it
special, and it keeps the traffic spread out. Plus it should never be
spoken of, only passed along. I would say you could pass it along
even secretly as long as you were postitive the recipient actually
finds it :) And yes it would be a special cluebook just for one box,
or even a series, but not a cluebook full of box clues. I guess it;s
work, but not too much more than a normal box. Especially those where
people make such beautiful logbooks.

Eli and Aubrey


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, seth mandeville
wrote:
> Sounds like the same problems may result. Minus the
> vandals. Would it be like a PLB and a cuckoo clue
> combined? How many clues are you going to put in it?
> Will you have to make a new clue book everytime you
> plant another box of this kind? Sounds kinda time
> consuming. Who knows, I'm probably wrong. I usually
> am. That's what happens when your parents drop you
> too often.
>
> Seth
> --- eli_slider wrote:
> >
> > I recently planted a box in an area a friend of mine
> > showed me and
> > which we decided would be great for letterboxes, but
> > that we want to
> > keep kind of quiet. I started considering making it
> > WOM or creating
> > Cuckoo clues for it. The problems I have had or see
> > with those
> > methods are these:
> >
> > 1. WOM clues get passed around and the list of
> > people who know about
> > it can grow exponentially. Not so great if you want
> > to place a box
> > in an area where you don't want to create high
> > traffic for whatever
> > reason, usually ecological.
> >
> > 2. Cuckoo clues by their nature give you no
> > assurance that the person
> > who finds them will be a person you want to find
> > your box. For
> > example, a vandal might find a box where the cuckoo
> > clues reside, and
> > then have the clues to your box. Not good.
> >
> > So, here is what I thought of. I have no name for
> > it yet, if it is
> > even a new idea. I am going to create a nice,
> > durable cluebook, and
> > perhaps a logbook as well. The clues will be in
> > this cluebook, but
> > the instructions will expressly request that the
> > clues never be copied
> > down to any other printed form. Nor, should the
> > existence of the box,
> > much less the clues themselves ever be spread by
> > word of mouth. After
> > the person who is given the cluebook finds the box,
> > they pass the
> > cluebook physically to another person who they feel
> > is trustworthy.
> > And so on. This way eventually most people in a
> > lboxing community
> > will get to find the box, but the time that takes
> > will be spread out
> > much further than usual thus reducing the impact of
> > the box on it's
> > environment.
> >
> > Hopefully I explained that clearly enough. I posted
> > this here to see
> > what everyone thinks about the concept, and to see
> > if perhaps it
> > already has a name.
> >
> > Any suggestions or comments?
> >
> > Eli
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/

Why not make the clues REALLY difficult? That will at at least keep
the stupid and lazy people away......

--->sangfroid

+Message: 4
+ Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 02:10:10 -0000
+ From: "mr_sangfroid"
+Subject: Re: Is this concept new?
+
+
+Why not make the clues REALLY difficult? That will at at least keep
+the stupid and lazy people away......
+
+--->sangfroid


Are we trying to keep the "stupid and lazy people" away, or are we trying to make this sport available to all people to include people who can not hike long distances and little kids? Neither of the groups are "stupid or lazy". If I am taking offense to your statment and no offfense was meant I am sorry. However I do not believe that this sport is exclusive to "smart and in shape" people.

NJCarole (who enjoys drive-bys, long hikes, virtuals and PLB's!!)



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have been considering making the clues in the cluebook quite
challenging to solve. I am trying to create something interesting and
entertaining for other boxers, so this is a good idea.

Thanks,
Eli



--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "mr_sangfroid"
wrote:
>
> Why not make the clues REALLY difficult? That will at at least keep
> the stupid and lazy people away......
>
> --->sangfroid

No, it's not exclusive, but to create a special box means that not
EVERY single letterboxer will know about it. Who will not know about
it? If the clues are VERY difficult, they are more fun for some
people, and others will never bother.

Eli







--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, Carole Burke wrote:
> +Message: 4
> + Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 02:10:10 -0000
> + From: "mr_sangfroid"
> +Subject: Re: Is this concept new?
> +
> +
> +Why not make the clues REALLY difficult? That will at at least keep
> +the stupid and lazy people away......
> +
> +--->sangfroid
>
>
> Are we trying to keep the "stupid and lazy people" away, or are we
trying to make this sport available to all people to include people
who can not hike long distances and little kids? Neither of the
groups are "stupid or lazy". If I am taking offense to your statment
and no offfense was meant I am sorry. However I do not believe that
this sport is exclusive to "smart and in shape" people.
>
> NJCarole (who enjoys drive-bys, long hikes, virtuals and PLB's!!)
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Eli,

I like it! The cluebook idea sounds like the way the Dartmoor clue
directories work, but for just a single box. Except for the part
where the existence of the book is a secret, and the part about how
it gets passed around. Gives me an idea for something I'd like to do
as well...

-Red


--- eli wrote:
> I am going to create a nice, durable cluebook, and
> perhaps a logbook as well. The clues will be in this cluebook, but
> the instructions will expressly request that the clues never be
copied
> down to any other printed form. Nor, should the existence of the
box,
> much less the clues themselves ever be spread by word of mouth.
After
> the person who is given the cluebook finds the box, they pass the
> cluebook physically to another person who they feel is trustworthy.
> And so on.
>
> Any suggestions or comments?
>
> Eli

I don' t think that's the intent at all. There are so many different ways to
play the game, sometimes it's fun to see how far you can push something in
one direction. I personally have clues out there that are 2 minute finds,
and I have some that only one person has successfully completed the series.
I have TONS of family/not so fit/casual letterboxer friendly boxes out there
and I have some that even the veterans roll their eyes at me and call me
names. Why did I do that? To keep things interesting for me!

Maiden

_____

From: Carole Burke [mailto:gckburke@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 4:13 AM
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [LbNA] Re: Is this concept new?





Are we trying to keep the "stupid and lazy people" away, or are we trying to
make this sport available to all people to include people who can not hike
long distances and little kids? Neither of the groups are "stupid or lazy".
If I am taking offense to your statment and no offfense was meant I am
sorry. However I do not believe that this sport is exclusive to "smart and
in shape" people.

NJCarole (who enjoys drive-bys, long hikes, virtuals and PLB's!!)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wrote:
>
> Why not make the clues REALLY difficult? That will at at
>least keep
> the stupid and lazy people away......

Hey! I resemble that remark!!
the lazy letterboxer


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Define Stupid and Lazy!
Karen

mr_sangfroid wrote:

Why not make the clues REALLY difficult? That will at at least keep
the stupid and lazy people away......

--->sangfroid




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think that Mr Sangfroid mostly meant "unable or
unwilling to do research or solve puzzles before setting
out." For example, my "Great Blue Heron" letterbox has a
two lines of clues and requires a long hike. The biggest
collection of more difficult boxes are by Der Mad Stamper.

Difficult finds are the favorite for some and of no great
interest to others. To each their own. =)

Choi

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:52:35 -0800 (PST)
Karen Russo wrote:
>
> Define Stupid and Lazy!
> Karen

This lowest common denominator mentality makes me crazier. Above of
all there are no rules, do what you want. There are many boxes made by
the stupid and lazy for the stupid and lazy and there are many boxes
made by the obnoxious and elitist for the obnoxious and elitist and
everywhere in between. The biggest problem is that this hobby is no
longer passed by wom amongst like-minded friends. It has been
publicised to the masses so now we must deal with the entire range of
ability, creativity and fitness, and I think is happening just fine.
There's plenty for every level of ability etc.(insert pet adjective
here). But stop with the procrustean passive aggressive pressure to
dumb everything down. Isn't what this mentality done to broadcast news
and commercial television bad enough?

Does every car run on regular? If it pings use ethel. How about
those diesel burners? Only want to ride a bicycle, go for it.

There is sufficient ways to play this game, just don't place
restrictions on those that wish to play it differently. If you don't
like a certain type letterbox then don't look for it. If you only
want to place difficult types of boxes then that is your choice.

Don

Well said I think. And Don too. There are boxes of all sorts and in
some areas, tons of boxes of all sorts. I personally enjoy almost all
of them, though the more challenging, the more rewarding to me. For
those who don't enjoy a challenge, don't accept one. I think that's
how things usually work anyway.

@@@@@
"The biggest problem is that this hobby is no
longer passed by wom amongst like-minded friends. It has been
publicised to the masses so now we must deal with the entire range of
ability, creativity and fitness, and I think is happening just fine."
@@@@@

I agree, and would like to see more of the old style, more underground
feel to the hobby that I wasn't around for or in the right country to
fully experience, but which appeals to me very much. Was that a
run-on sentence or what?


Eli


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "mr_elsworth_toohey"
wrote:
>
> This lowest common denominator mentality makes me crazier. Above of
> all there are no rules, do what you want. There are many boxes made by
> the stupid and lazy for the stupid and lazy and there are many boxes
> made by the obnoxious and elitist for the obnoxious and elitist and
> everywhere in between. The biggest problem is that this hobby is no
> longer passed by wom amongst like-minded friends. It has been
> publicised to the masses so now we must deal with the entire range of
> ability, creativity and fitness, and I think is happening just fine.
> There's plenty for every level of ability etc.(insert pet adjective
> here). But stop with the procrustean passive aggressive pressure to
> dumb everything down. Isn't what this mentality done to broadcast news
> and commercial television bad enough?

From: "mr_sangfroid"
> +Subject: Re: Is this concept new?
> +
> +
> +Why not make the clues REALLY difficult? That will at at least keep
> +the stupid and lazy people away......
> +
> +--->sangfroid
>
>
> Are we trying to keep the "stupid and lazy people" away, or are we
trying to make this sport available to all people to include people
who can not hike long distances and little kids? Neither of the
groups are "stupid or lazy". If I am taking offense to your statment
and no offfense was meant I am sorry. However I do not believe that
this sport is exclusive to "smart and in shape" people.
>
> NJCarole (who enjoys drive-bys, long hikes, virtuals and PLB's!!)


************************
I don't know if you followed the thread back to the beginning, but the
"placer" is trying to LIMIT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE FINDING THIS BOX!
No we are not trying to keep anyone away (I am not anyway). Lets all
admit something though: SOME PEOPLE ARE STUPID AND LAZY! I too have a
little child who cannot hike more than a mile or so, I too enjoy a
driveby, and I also know a handicapped letterboxer. This does not
change the fact that SOME PEOPLE ARE STUPID AND LAZY! Nor does it
change the FACT that not all letterboxes are(or should be) designed
for all letterboxers! REALLY DIFFICULT CLUE KEEP SOME PEOPLE AWAY! I
am sorry if you chose to be offended(I certainly wasn't trying to
single you out). And not to come off as a total jerk(I'm not!) if you
were offended because I mentioned 'stupid and lazy' people; it sounds
like you might have some self-esteem issues.

---->sangfroid
***********************

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, Karen Russo
wrote:
> Define Stupid and Lazy!
> Karen
>


stupid (st'pĭd, sty'-)
adj., -er, -est.
1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
2. Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a
stupid mistake.
4. Dazed, stunned, or stupefied.
5. Pointless; worthless: a stupid job.
n.
A stupid or foolish person.

[Latin stupidus, from stupre, to be stunned.]

stu'pidly adv.
stu'pidness n.


lazy (l'z)
adj., -zier, -ziest.
1. Resistant to work or exertion; disposed to idleness.
2. Slow-moving; sluggish: a lazy river.
3. Conducive to idleness or indolence: a lazy summer day.
4. Depicted as reclining or lying on its side. Used of a brand on
livestock.
[Probably of Low German origin.]

la'zily adv.
la'ziness n.

You can just look this stuff up yourself, ya know. It isn't hard,
not all that much effort is involved either.

Brian
TeamGreenDragon

Its cool if you want to create a box/series for a select few, but to
ask everybody on this board for opinions/suggestions and not let us
all share is like bringing food over to others peoples houses,
asking "Smells good huh?" and then not offering any to them. Kinda
rude.

In a message dated 3/15/2005 2:26:46 PM Central Standard Time,
teamgreendragon2003@yahoo.com writes:
2. Slow-moving; sluggish: a lazy river.
3. Conducive to idleness or indolence: a lazy summer day.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Nothing better than a lazy river on a lazy summer day. I always thought of
lazy rivers and lazy summer days as positives. :-)

In fact, we'll be planting some boxes by a lazy river this spring or summer.
But I'll bet if folks go search by the lazy river on the lazy summer day, the
bugs won't be so lazy!

Turtles would qualify for lazy too I'd guess. And turtles are Class Acts.
(A lot of our 2005 boxes will revolve around turtles.)

So I'll admit to being lazy. Still have to read the definition of stupid
tho. I've been too lazy to do that yet.

Pippi


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lol, I guess you are right. If any of you come to Gerogia, email me
first and I will be glad to hook you up with clues.

Eli



--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Wascally Wabbit"
wrote:
>
> Its cool if you want to create a box/series for a select few, but to
> ask everybody on this board for opinions/suggestions and not let us
> all share is like bringing food over to others peoples houses,
> asking "Smells good huh?" and then not offering any to them. Kinda
> rude.

I still can't get over that there are people who have the problem of
too much traffic. (Legitimate I am sure but mind boggling nonetheless)
If I put out a WOM clue nothing would ever happen.
Here in glorious Utah my boxes go for many months without ever having
a single visitor and these are just the driveby boxes not the ones
buried in the snow.
So for all you guy longing for "the good ole days" there are still
lots of states available and Utah is one of them!
My three cents,
Nisha

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "eli_slider" wrote:
>
> I recently planted a box in an area a friend of mine showed me and
> which we decided would be great for letterboxes, but that we want to
> keep kind of quiet. I started considering making it WOM or creating
> Cuckoo clues for it. The problems I have had or see with those
> methods are these:
>
> 1. WOM clues get passed around and the list of people who know about
> it can grow exponentially. Not so great if you want to place a box
> in an area where you don't want to create high traffic for whatever
> reason, usually ecological.
>
> 2. Cuckoo clues by their nature give you no assurance that the person
> who finds them will be a person you want to find your box. For
> example, a vandal might find a box where the cuckoo clues reside, and
> then have the clues to your box. Not good.
>
> So, here is what I thought of. I have no name for it yet, if it is
> even a new idea. I am going to create a nice, durable cluebook, and
> perhaps a logbook as well. The clues will be in this cluebook, but
> the instructions will expressly request that the clues never be copied
> down to any other printed form. Nor, should the existence of the box,
> much less the clues themselves ever be spread by word of mouth. After
> the person who is given the cluebook finds the box, they pass the
> cluebook physically to another person who they feel is trustworthy.
> And so on. This way eventually most people in a lboxing community
> will get to find the box, but the time that takes will be spread out
> much further than usual thus reducing the impact of the box on it's
> environment.
>
> Hopefully I explained that clearly enough. I posted this here to see
> what everyone thinks about the concept, and to see if perhaps it
> already has a name.
>
> Any suggestions or comments?
>
> Eli

Not a new idea, but creative and very much in the spirit of the game.
I personally love receiving WOM clues, cluebooks, and other privately
distributed clues. I think it adds to the intrigue and although you
still do not have complete control of who eventually ends up with the
clues, you have significantly decreased the chances of bad stuff
happening to the box. Would like to see more of this type of play.

SpringChick